XP booting direct from USB Options

[sisal]

hi edborg

the entry "List" in ...\Control\ServiceGroupOrder determines which group gets loaded after each other.
the entrys in ...\control\GroupOrderList are for determining the load order of the group members (tagged services)

maybe you noticed the Tag= entry in the services. most services that belong to a group have a tag=x entry

the example, out of martins post:
"Boot Bus Extender"=hex:09,00,00,00,01,00,00,00,02,00,00,00,03,00,00,00,04,00,\
00,00,05,00,00,00,06,00,00,00,0f,00,00,00,10,00,00,00,11

translated from little endian: 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 10, 11
this is the service load order inside a group: first load the ones tagged with Tag=9, then the tagged 1, 2, and so on..
services, which belong to a group, but that are not tagged, are the last ones loaded in that group.

see http://support.microsoft.com/kb/115486/en-us for a detailed explanation.



to get the newest ewf files, you can simply download the sp2 part of the win embedded. it downloads xpesp2.exe, wich you can extract with winzip.
in the extracted folder under xpesp2\rep\{67c85615-b0c5-42ea-8b8a-e8ab47db2b1d} are the ewf 2.0.927.0 drivers

[sisal]

Hi spaceodissey

the speed of your usb harddisk depends on many factors.
the most important one is to have a usb2 controller

the next one is the usb chip in your harddisk case. there are many really cheap chips out there, wich support only pio modes, no udma. so the maximum transfer speed is limited to approx. 15mb/s

with a chip that supports udma you won't note a difference. the transfer speed now depends on your harddisk.
but you can count 10% performance for each hub between your computer and the harddisk (also for the root hub).

the commands take slightly longer to the harddisk, disassembled and reassembled by each usb hub, that will decrease the performance. where many concurrencing accesses to the harddisk are made, you won't feel a difference. just because the accurator needs more time to get the data than your commands need to travel down the usb tree

where you really, really will feel a difference is when you try to recover a crashed harddisk.
after each sector read error, windows makes a ide bus reset. connected to the internal ide controller, this reset takes about 1-2 seconds. a ide bus reset on usb takes about 5-10 seconds, again depending on the usb chip.

in general, if your usb case supports udma, you won't note a big difference in bootup time.

regards
sis

[Dietmar]

Hi Roland,

I tried this without success.

But even if Microsoft says, it is impossible, I do not believe that.
I think, you have to write new drivers, but it will work.

Until now, I cant do this.
This is very angry for me, because I have a notebook from Gericom,
that shows exact that behavior, that you describe.

Here are some people, who can do things, which I dont can.

Its the same as with the pupils at school:
Make them think, that hard work can make happy ...voila

Dietmar

[Roland]

Hi Dietmar and the rest!

Hope someone is crazy enough to try and succeed in getting to start WinXP from DOS.
Ive searched the internet for some solution, but just cant find it.

What triggers WinXP to boot from HD? Is it the BIOS that executes something?
Or is it something else? Maybe someone can think of something to simulate these actions and put it in an executable that can be run in DOS.

Hope there are people here that have some smart ideas?

[CJJ]

Dear Dietmar, Sisal, Martin and Sam,

Just to say my USB is still working fine without a hitch and my portable is so much more stable now that it is cooler.

Cool!

Many thanks again,

Christopher

[jaclaz]

@Roland

Actually what you need to do it is NOT booting XP from DOS, but rather booting from a boot floppy an XP system RESIDING on a harddisk/flashdisk.

This is PERFECTLY possible with "normal" (i.e. IDE/ATA) disks for which NO driver is needed.

It is also possible with SCSI/SATA disks, but you will need the specific drivers.

It is NOT possible at the moment, to my best knowledge, with a USB connected flashdisk.

For the "normal" way see this:
http://www.xxcopy.com/xxcopy33.htm

Problem with USB connected media is whether the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM is able to "see" and support drives attached to the USB port (on a "standard" motherboard capable of booting from a "harddisk" attached to a USB port, it is the BIOS that gives this support to NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM until the drivers come into play).

It is NOT possible to boot an NT based Operating System from DOS, but nothing, at least theoretically, prevents a bootloader to be able to give this kind of support.

As an alternative, it is possible to use Syslinux/Memdisk, see here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...ic=10806&st=228
but the problem of the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM not seeing the USB attached harddisk still remains.

I cannot say if the "modified" NTDETECT.COM can do this.

Anyone any ideas?

jaclaz

[Ed_P]

The package I downloaded (from the link in your tutorial) is "evaluation version of Windows XP Embedded with Service Pack 2".
These are the details of the files I extracted from the Repositories:
ewf.sys 34KB 17/01/03 10:52
ewfmgr.exe 15KB 17/01/03 10:52
ewfntldr 280KB 17/01/03 10:52

I'm lost! I downloaded the same package from the same link and when I search the install I only find:
ewfapi.dll
ewfapi.h
ewfapi.lib
all in the Installer/disk3/ewfapi folder. No .sys file, no .exe file, no Repositories folder.

[Former_SamPi_post]

Dear Dietmar,

Could you sent me the special ntoskrnl.exe and the cracked ntdetect.com?
I will very appreciate your help! thanks very much.

My mail : tkotw.sam@gmail.com

Regards
SamPi

[JustForYou]

Hi all,
Who can tell me how to make WinXPE booted from USB Flash Drive step by step?Pls give me a help!Thanks you very much!


Best Regards!

[Dietmar]

Hi JustForYou,

make a first try with the Tutorial 3 on a USB harddrive.
Read everything here.
Then it will work.

Nice to hear from you
Dietmar

[edborg]

@Dietmar
cc SFiorito

Hi Dietmar,
I've received the "new" EWF files (build 2.0.927.0 31/08/04) thanks to Marcel who kindly sent them to me.

You were right: the ewfntldr is not needed for a RAM (REG) install, as it's the case for protecting a USB stick, and, at least in my case, does not boot.

This is what Microsoft says on the subject:

-------Quote----------
EWF NTLDR is required if you are using EWF Disk mode or EWF RAM mode. You can use the standard NTLDR if you are using EWF RAM Reg mode.
--------Unquote-------

The full article can be found here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/xp...fcomponents.asp

Thanks to you for making Windows USB boot possible and to SFiorito for enabling us to protect flash disks with EWF

[edborg]

I'm lost! I downloaded the same package from the same link and when I search the install I only find:
ewfapi.dll
ewfapi.h
ewfapi.lib
all in the Installer/disk3/ewfapi folder. No .sys file, no .exe file, no Repositories folder.

I was lost to!

I wrongly thought that the files were to be found in a cab file in Installer\DISK2\DATABASE\WINDOWS EMBEDDED DATA\REPOSITORIES

But those are old builds. The new build 2.0.927.0 are to be found in Installer\disk3\xpesp2.exe as clearly explained by Sisal in his post yesterday.
Thanks Sisal!

However, If you can't find them I shall be pleased to send them to you by email
Regards
Edborg

[edborg]

Hi everybody

After several weeks and thanks to those who have shared their knowledge in this forum, I've finally managed to build my first bootable USB stick (with XPSP1 and EWF), starting from a slipstreamed XP install on HD and following Dietmar's and SFiorito's tutorials.

I now have a 1 GB Verbatim pendrive working well on two different machines, a desktop and a notebook.

My next goal is to build a 4GB partioned USB drive, which is mapped as a fixed disk (and does not need EWF).

Before attempting the direct install as per Martin's/Sisal's tutorial (which requires phisically unplugging the HD), I've tried the "quick" way of transferring everything from the (working) USB stick .
The USB disk reads the boot.ini and starts booting ... but reboots after a few seconds! (Loop, not 0x7B error)

I wonder whether this "quick" method is conceptually wrong, or the failure is due to the different types of support used, as I've read here that hardware plays an important role in the (un)success of the whole thing.

I've played a bit with the LoadOrderGroup and CriticalDeviceDatabase definitions trying various combinations amongst those published by Dietmar and Sisal and noticed some changes in behaviour in the USB disk, although unfortunately none of them led to success todate.

I suspect that different supports react differently to the latency time so well explained by Sisal as follows:

i have a usb harddisk case wich indicates, wheter it is connected on the usb bus (ie it has an usb address) or not.

in a save boot, between last loaded sys-file (mostly mup.sys) and the point where windows loads the usb drivers goes some time. after mup.sys this led turns off, and some time later it turns back on

so i played a bit with the group order

System reserved: led-off-time about 0.5sec
boot bus extender: led-off-time about 2 - 5 sec

this led is nice to debug. if it does not turn off after mup.sys, then something goes wrong and i get 0x7b. if it does not turn back on, then i get the 0x7b also, but something different went wrong. hihi
when the group is boot bus extender, then right after the led turns back on the first read access occurs. with the system reserved, it takes about 2-3 sec after the led turns on until the first read access occurs.
this is in normal circumstances. but i noticed that the pagefile will be loaded before, so you will be save when you choose system reserved.

when you take a look at the registry value HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\ServiceGroupOrder\List, then you will probably understand what these group entrys mean.
on my laptop i'm not able to turn off the internal hd via bios, and if i take it out, it wont pass POST. but i succeeded with the slipstreamed xp setup while the internal hd is connected on my laptop, and on another comp with no attached drive.

btw, i succeded with win2k sp4, winxp sp1/sp2, and win2k3 srv std. (but none of them let me set a pagefile, but that's another story )
good luck
sis

For instance in my case the reboot started after a couple of seconds with Dietmar's otto.reg and LoadOrderGroup=System Boot Extender, whereas it lasted a few seconds more with an "autochk program not found" message with Sisal's otto.reg and LoadOrderGroup=System Reserved.

Does this trigger something to somebody?
Although none of the several combinations has worked for me todate, couldn't be that the direction to further investigate for the EXPERTS? (not me)

Any contribution to shed some light on the above would be most appreciated.
Sorry for the lenghty post

Regards
Edborg

[Former_sfiorito_post]

The reason why I just had people use the EWFNTLDR in that tutorial (it's about a year old now I think) is to keep things simple in case they plan on using Hibernate Once, Resume Many (HORM). So you would need EWFNTLDR for that. If not, then you're correct you don't need EWFNTLDR. But one of the great things about EWF SP2 is HORM.

[Dietmar]

Hi edborg,

the message "autochk program not found"
appears, when you want to boot from a device, where the arcpath (in boot.ini) leads to a partition,
that is hidden.

That happens, if in the partitionstable from that device
you want to start, stands in Partition type indicator (hex) 1C (hidden for Fat32)
but it has to be 0C (seeable).

This is an error, that is hard to find out.

Nice to hear from you

Dietmar

[Roland]

@Roland

Actually what you need to do it is NOT booting XP from DOS, but rather booting from a boot floppy an XP system RESIDING on a harddisk/flashdisk.

This is PERFECTLY possible with "normal" (i.e. IDE/ATA) disks for which NO driver is needed.

It is also possible with SCSI/SATA disks, but you will need the specific drivers.

It is NOT possible at the moment, to my best knowledge, with a USB connected flashdisk.

For the "normal" way see this:
http://www.xxcopy.com/xxcopy33.htm

Problem with USB connected media is whether the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM is able to "see" and support drives attached to the USB port (on a "standard" motherboard capable of booting from a "harddisk" attached to a USB port, it is the BIOS that gives this support to NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM until the drivers come into play).

It is NOT possible to boot an NT based Operating System from DOS, but nothing, at least theoretically, prevents a bootloader to be able to give this kind of support.

As an alternative, it is possible to use Syslinux/Memdisk, see here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...ic=10806&st=228
but the problem of the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM not seeing the USB attached harddisk still remains.

I cannot say if the "modified" NTDETECT.COM can do this.

Anyone any ideas?

jaclaz

Gonna look into this. Hope i get it too work! Tnx for the info Jaclaz! Keep you posted!

About the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM not seeing the HD:
I now got a bootdisk that starts up in DOS and my USB HD is accesable via C:
So if i can get the DOS USB driver to be active before the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM come in action i guess im in business!

[Roland]

Gonna look into this. Hope i get it too work! Tnx for the info Jaclaz! Keep you posted!

About the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM not seeing the HD:
I now got a bootdisk that starts up in DOS and my USB HD is accesable via C:
So if i can get the DOS USB driver to be active before the NTLDR/NTDETECT.COM come in action i guess im in business!

Ok, i tested it and the darn thing gives me a bootmenu from the boot.ini. Funny
But nevertheless, it didnt load either the config.sys nor the autoexec.bat that have to be executed in order to load the USB driver. So now i have to figure out how to get the driver loaded before the xxclone disk loads the boot.ini...

Anyone got an idea?

[guenther]

I tried with a 6GB USB disk on my ASUS laptop running Windows 2000. No go! Still INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE.

I assume I better keep my CrtiticalDeviceDatabase entries and just add the new ones for USB. What are these entries for anyway?

Changing the start values for the services from 3 to 0 I assume this somehow tells the Windows startup when to establish these services...I guess.

I have no usbohci nor a usbuhci. I als don't have a usbport.inf on my system either.

Now if the so called tutorial (I would call it a cheat-cheat) would contain any educational value I might have a clue. So whoever came up with the changes listed in the tutorial, what was the source to gain this information or, what is the purpose/rule behind these changes?

I guess that during the early startup phase Windows needs to be told to load USB drivers and start the USB service to configure USB devices especially the USB connected system disk. There must be way to see what drivers have been loaded so far. Isn't there a debug NTDETECT?

/Guenther

[jaclaz]

Now if the so called tutorial (I would call it a cheat-cheat) would contain any educational value I might have a clue.

Hey, take it easy man!

Everyone here, maybe except you, is trying to do his best.....

jaclaz

[Dietmar]

Hi Roland,

do you mean with Syslinux you can fullfill Step 1.) of the Tutorial from a computer with USB harddisk,
that in all other cases only works with a USB floppy?

If this is true, that would be the break through for all older computers!

Nice to hear from you
Dietmar