How to make a USB Stick bootable for XP Options

[jaclaz]

Is there something I am missing here??

Did you try doing what Dietmar wrote in v2 of his instructions on the other thread:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=14181&hl=

(using the filter driver on this thread is ONLY useful if you want/need to multi-partition the device)

jaclaz

[TERRYHOAX]

Can someone send me the modified ntdetect.com please?

[jaclaz]

I was WRONG:

I suspect that there is NOTHING like a "removable" bit on the actiual stick that can be edited, but that it is something in the Registry that Win2k/XP sets when it finds some "special" bit in the stick controller ID (which is NOT editable).

I found that there is a bit that IS editable in the stick itself, something like a flashable registry.

I only have two sticks, BOTH with an OTI controller.

I have found some software that let's me manage them.

Unfortunately all the info is either in Chinese or, sometimes worse, in "Chinglish", I am doing some experiments to find a suitable way to use the software.

I will keep you posted, as soon as I find the meaning of all, or at least most of the useful settings.

jaclaz

[Sam Ontario]

Can you send me the info and software to bit set the flash drive to try, thanks.

[jaclaz]

Can you send me the info and software to bit set the flash drive to try, thanks.

Read my post here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...4181&st=378

there are links to two different utilities one for OTi and one for I-create keys, plus a (actually at the moment VERY incomplete) zip file hosted on my site with some info and alternative way for OTi.
To only change the removable/fixed bit, it is strongly recommended to use the Recoverdisk app:
http://www.pretec.com/ftp/iDisk/RecoverDisk1103.zip
and NOT the Production Tool

RDgenerator is to be used according to said preliminary document and to this post:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...4181&st=368

You need to use an utility such as those outlined here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...4181&st=362
to get the EXISTING info on your USB key so that you can properly modify the .set file.
VITAL values are:
SCSIVID=
SCSIPID=
DiskType= <--- 0 means removable, 1 means fixed
USBVID=
USBPID=
USBManufStr=
USBProduStr=
NotChgExist=1

Of course, and as always, NO WARRANTY WHATSOEVER implied!

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: May 5 2008, 02:26 PM

[Ed_P]

I don't get it.

I have a Flash Drive I got for Christmas, it is bootable, I used PEtoUSB to put BartPE onto it, but I can't imagine ever using it for PE. Booting it is slower than crap!! Dietmar's thread is for loading a standard Windows onto a Flash Drive using Embedded Windows drivers, is that the approach required for all OSs on a Jump Drive? Is there an easier way? Preferably a simple Bart setting I need to change?

[jaclaz]

I don't get it.

I have a Flash Drive I got for Christmas, it is bootable, I used PEtoUSB to put BartPE onto it, but I can't image ever using it for PE. Booting it is slower than crap!! Dietmar's thread is for loading a standard Windows onto a Flash Drive using Embedded Windows drivers, is that the approach required for all OSs on a Jump Drive? Is there an easier way? Preferably a simple Bart setting I need to change?

Actually, Dietmar's project does NOT use any XP Embedded file at all, the (XP embedded derived) EWF filter is an "optional" add on, needed for XP but not for BartPE (as it is "Read Only") to prevent premature wear on the keydrive due to excessove write cycles.

I hope that once things will be more or less "stabilized", i.e. when Dietmar will be able to provide a defnitive "universal" tutorial and Bart (and ReatoGO and all the other BartPE's "gurus") will be able to take some time away from the debugging of BartPE 3.18/3.19/3.20 the two projects could well "merge".

About the extreme SLOWNESS of your booting, you have to remember that USB 2.0 is just a "standard" and "USB 2.0 compatible" does NOT mean that you will get FULL USB 2.0 speed.

There are several things to consider:
1) there are motherboards that are only USB 1.1 compatible
2) there are motherboards that are USB 2.0 compatible, but have the BIOS that does NOT use the feature (speed is USB 1.1 until the XP drivers start)
3) in case of more than two USB ports, always try the ones attached on the motherboard, some of the ones in the front are slower/defective
4) not ALL the key are the same, have a look at this comparison:
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2549
If you take the "2 Mb File Read" test as example, you will see that the Memina/Shikatronics performance ratio is roughly 5:1, and to remain inside the same manifacturer PQI, the ratio between stick and stickPRO is about 1:3

jaclaz

[Ed_P]

Actually, Dietmar's project does NOT use any XP Embedded file at all, the (XP embedded derived) EWF filter is an "optional" add on

That was not my impression. It is needed I thought to prevent burning out the USB drive and to achieve 10 sec boot times.

needed for XP but not for BartPE (as it is "Read Only")

I wondered about the concern with BartPE and suspected the same. Good to know.

BartPE 3.18/3.19/3.20

!!! What do you know jaclaz??

3) in case of more than two USB ports, always try the ones attached on the motherboard, some of the ones in the front are slower/defective

Thanks!! I tried using the USB drive connected to a hub connected to a port in the back and it does seem to boot faster and is more reasonable. But still certainly not as fast as a CD. In that booting from the USB is all electronic and uses no moving parts I was expecting something faster than a hd.

4) not ALL the key are the same, have a look at this comparison:
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2549
If you take the "2 Mb File Read" test as example, you will see that the Memina/Shikatronics performance ratio is roughly 5:1, and to remain inside the same manifacturer PQI, the ratio between stick and stickPRO is about 1:3

Very good article jaclaz. Thanks for the link to it.

[ibmx30]

Hi,
I am new an dumb, I know. And have some basic guestions. Do not be angry please. But it should help you to make a final tutorial

I am fascinated by the possibility of making the pendrives bootable. It all seems to be quite eaisy in the theory. But I have a problem, I can not even start with.

I have donloaded XP SP1 and unpacked. And it does not contain a boot.ini file. In your tutorial i should modify this file, so it should be claryfied.
Or maybe you mean a special edition of xp that include sp1? There is something like that?

Second question is more ambitious:
How to make my digital camera with 1 gb sd memory bootable? Anybody tried this?

It would be nice

Cheers!

[jaclaz]

Hi, ibmx30,
I don't want to put you down, but you will have to read a lot, and grasp quite a few concepts before being able to boot XP from a USB stick, here are some starting answers:

1) You need a SLIPSTREAMED XP SP1, i.e. a CD that contains your LICENSED Windows XP + Service Pack 1 integrated in it.
There are a number of tutorials on how to do this, but, in my opinion, the easiest way is to use nlute:
http://www.nliteos.com/

2) You need to understand HOW the process of booting happens, generally for all systems, more in detail about NT based Operating Systems and with even more detail when we are talking about USB sticks:
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...SB/USBfaqs.html
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...B/USBstick.html
http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showto...533;entry226081
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=14181&hl=

3)IF The camera is seen from Windows 2K/XP/2003 as a volume (i.e. it needs NO "special" drivers AND a letter is assigned to it), it is possible to boot an Operating System from it, as it is nothing different form a USB stick or a USB memory card reader + memory card.
But there are TWO possible problems:
1) that the hardware of the camera will NOT let you format it as bootable using an external program
2) that, IF the above can be accomplished, the camera hardware won't be able to recognise the internal memory anymore, thus it won't be able to operate

There is NO "one size fits all" solution.

If I were you I would make sure to be able to replicate what others have already done, before opening the new frontier of "booting caeras".



jaclaz

[WinSmith]

Hello jaclaz;
Thanks for the answer http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...=14181&st=1440#

What im missing seems to be the SCSI_VID/PID for the original stick , the rest Ive recovered.
If anyone has been testing the OTI production tool , please share your findings,
theres got to be a way to set the RMB with the production-tool. It seems like it ignores the value in the .set
file.
Im allso very interested in the function "EnableCDROM="and "CDImgPath="
To me this suggests that it IS possible to make a partition on the disc that contains a CDFS image
AND is seen as non-removable.
That would explain how those sticks that autorun a presentation without user-prompting when
inserted in a autorun-enabled windoze-box are made?.

[edborg]

Read my post here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...c=14181&st=378#

there are links to two different utilities one for OTi and one for I-create keys, plus a (actually at the moment VERY incomplete) zip file hosted on my site with some info and alternative way for OTi.
To only change the removable/fixed bit, it is strongly recommended to use the Recoverdisk app:
http://www.pretec.com/ftp/iDisk/RecoverDisk1103.zip
and NOT the Production Tool

RDgenerator is to be used according to said preliminary document and to this post:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...ic=14181&st=368
.......
jaclaz

If I understand correctly the results of your research, an USB removable stick can be changed and made fixed in absolute terms only if has an OTi or an I-create controller.
For an OTi controller, this can be done through RDGenerator.exe and a specific .SET file created with the help of your oti_tool_pre01.xls, to create a RecoverDisk.exe specific for the stick.
In all other cases:

The drawback of having the pendrive seen as removable is that Windows 2K/XP will not allow to mount ANY partition but the first one, even if the stick is multipartitioned

and, I assume, direct install of XP to such a stick would not be possible. Is that true?

Dietmar Stoelting has found a way to use an "Hitachi Microdrive Filter Driver" to get around the problem, but his solution only works for his way to boot XP from a USB stick, as he "installs" the filter driver to the bootable system, it does not apply generally to already running machines, unless you install the driver.

How does he "install" the the filter driver to the bootable system?

Thanks to Jacopo Lazzari (jaclaz), now it is possible
to install all clones of XP direct to a USB stick.
Before you start with 1.) of the Tutorial 4 do the following:

1.) Write FF to all sectors of your USB stick with a hexeditor (I use Winhex). Disconnect your stick.
2.) Copy the Hitachi Microdrive Filter to your working XP harddisk.
3.) Connect your USB stick again.
4.) Go to the XP Device Manager, search for your USB stick (drives, next to your harddisk).
5.) Chose New drivers for your USB stick and there Hitachi Microdrive.
6.) Format with Partition Magic 8 your USB stick with FAT32 and set it activ.
7.) Go to step 1.) of Tutorial 4.

Why is the stick seen as fixed by the setup program, whereas it's not from other Windows installations?
edborg
P.S. I need to understand it in theory, because I don't have any more sticks available to experiment.

[jaclaz]

@winsmith
You should/could double check your registry.
Look here:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Enum\USB\
or try using my small batch files:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...14181&st=85
If you cannot find any, you can use the "Generic" standard OTi 2168 one, which is:
Vid=0ea0
Pid=2168

Im allso very interested in the function "EnableCDROM="and "CDImgPath="
To me this suggests that it IS possible to make a partition on the disc that contains a CDFS image
AND is seen as non-removable.
That would explain how those sticks that autorun a presentation without user-prompting when
inserted in a autorun-enabled windoze-box are made?.

All I was able to find about the RDGenerator/ProductionTool settings is in this doc:
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...T/USBstick3.zip

It seems like there is a later version of the OTi 2168 Controller that has the option to do what you presume.
Unfortunately the "normal" one has NOT this capability.

If I understand correctly the results of your research, an USB removable stick can be changed and made fixed in absolute terms only if has an OTi or an I-create controller.

Well, no, actually the result of my research only means that I was able to find the NEEDED tool ONLY for OTi and I-create controllers.
ALL other manufacturer HAVE that tool, but unfortunately it is not available, has not "leaked" out or I wasn't able to find it.

and, I assume, direct install of XP to such a stick would not be possible. Is that true?

No, I don't think that necessarily it won't be possible, maybe some more findings and tweaking will be needed but I don't see it as an impossible thing.

Why is the stick seen as fixed by the setup program, whereas it's not from other Windows installations?

As I see it, during setup the device is "identified" by the BIOS, not by the XP drivers settings.
The part of Dietmar post you quoted should refer only to the fact that by using the Hitachi Filter you can use a "traditional" partitioning program from WITHIN XP, instead of using the HP format utility or my (I have to say it, quite complex but more exact method of formatting it ) workaround of writing the Partition table manually before formatting in the traditional way.

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: May 6 2008, 02:08 PM

[WinSmith]

Thx jaclaz
And I allready have all the goodies you sugest.
about the CDrom options maybe that other controler is the one
used in u3 sticks? Ive never used one of those , would be
interesting to open one and have a look

[edborg]

Well, no, actually the result of my research only means that I was able to find the NEEDED tool ONLY for OTi and I-create controllers.
ALL other manufacturer HAVE that tool, but unfortunately it is not available, has not "leaked" out or I wasn't able to find it.

OK, that's what I meant: an USB removable stick can be changed and made fixed in absolute terms by us only if has an OTi or an I-create controller.

As I see it, during setup the device is "identified" by the BIOS, not by the XP drivers settings.

So the stick is seen as removable by the BIOS as well, but this (according to Dietmar's post) wouldn't prevent a direct XP install to it .
I ask because I've never had the opportunity to personally test direct install to USB removable stick and had gathered from other people's experience/posts that this is not possible (the stick is not seen as a suitable medium by Windows setup). What do you think is true?
edborg

[jaclaz]

Well, no, the U3 has nothing to do with it.

The "new" OTi chip is the one called 2168AG and later, most probably the 2168 chip has different (enhanced) releases.

It is more along the lines of this product:
http://www.udrw.com/en/index.php


But I have a BIG UPDATE

New OTi Production tool:
http://www.oti.com.tw/eng/supports/downloa...TMD2.9.0.11.zip

And now there is a MANUAL too!
http://www.oti.com.tw/eng/supports/downloa....0.11Manual.pdf

Quick description:
http://www.shinny.com.tw/new_page_6.htm


jaclaz

P.S.:@edborg
From what I have experienced so far, the actual USB stick has the lesser responsabilities when something goes wrong, I would attribute the fault (unfortunately) in this order:
1) Something not connected or wrong in the "hardware" between chair and PC.
2) Something flaky in the motherboard BIOS

This post has been edited by jaclaz: May 6 2008, 02:21 PM

[edborg]

P.S.:@edborg
From what I have experienced so far, the actual USB stick has the lesser responsabilities when something goes wrong, I would attribute the fault (unfortunately) in this order:
1) Something not connected or wrong in the "hardware" between chair and PC.
2) Something flaky in the motherboard BIOS

Well, I really hope it's not my hardware, cause it would be difficult to change it!!!
Anyway, as far as you know, is it or is it not possible to directly install XP to a removable USB stick?
My XP install on a removable stick happens to have been made with the indirect method (Dietmar's Tutorial 3).

But I have a BIG UPDATE

New OTi Production tool:
http://www.oti.com.tw/eng/supports/downloa...TMD2.9.0.11.zip

Good news, but does this new OTi Production Tool create the same problems mentioned in your USBstick3.doc?

The normal tool to make the programming is a "special" software called "Mass Production Tool" or, in the later releases, "PTMD" for "Production Tool Multi Device".
This software, which is probably part of a OTI SDK is not easily available and has the distinctive disadvantage that, being aimed to "initialize" the controllers, uses a "special" USB driver that can operate on more than one device concurrently. As the "special" driver needs to be installed, it substitutes the "normal" USB Mass Storage Driver and, being aimed to do only the programming, it does not give access to the volume.
So using it can possibly mess your system up, and even if you really know what you are doing, swapping drivers can be cumbersome.

edborg

[Dietmar]

Hi jaclaz and edborg,

I just tested what you are talking about.

jaclaz is 100% right:

You can install XP direct to an USB stick, that is marked as removable.
I tested this just in this moment with XP SP1.
You cant install it there, if your Bios does not like this.
But on newer Bios, the only thing, why this happen is, because the arcpath isnt found.

So: If you change simply the ntdetect.com on your XP installations CD against the modified one,
on every newer compi, XP can be installed direct to any removable USB device.

And one thing more: Windows Embedded can be installed there direct (means running FBA on a USB stick (with the Bit set as removable) as the only massstorage device),
if the Bios does not like this for real XP because of the missing arcpath from the silly Bios.
This behavior I do not understand, because it means that something in the setup process from Windows Embedded is totally different from the setup of real XP

Nice to hear from you
Dietmar

PS: The hardware on the chair can change everything or nothing .
In this case, write a ntbootdd.sys and you can install anything everywhere.

[jaclaz]

@edborg
Well actually what I wrote was ideally something along the lines of:
"if you mess with this I am not responsible"

If you click on the "disconnect" device icon on the Windows bar, it will open the dialog to disconnect the device.

You simply go to the properties of the device, then change the driver with the "other" one.

When you install the Production tool, the "PTdevice" driver is installed.

This driver WILL NOT see the USB stick as a drive, but it will aloow access from the Production Tool.

Once you have done with it, you need to use the method above described to "swap" USB Mass Storage driver back.

If you run the Production Tool with the USB Mass Storage driver loaded, it won't be able to find the stick.

Making a recoverdisk.exe with RDgenerator, whilst it gives LESS control on the stick controller settings, (as not ALL settings are working with it) has the advantage of being a "on the fly solution" (but you still of course need to disconnect and reconnect the stick).

@Dietmar

This behavior I do not understand, because it means that something in the setup process from Windows Embedded is totally different from the setup of real XP.

Most probably XP Embedded is more aimed to the "Professional" user and is somehow more "elastic" in its setup checks.




jaclaz

[WinSmith]

Jaclaz , thanks for the link to the new tool , cant wait to check it out
Nice product-line they have by the way , a lot of it looks like things sold under other brandnames
I like the concept behind those small 1" HDD but read/write is only 3-4 Mb/s
but then you wouldnt need the EWF.

Well, no, the U3 has nothing to do with it.
The "new" OTi chip is the one called 2168AG and later, most probably the 2168 chip has different (enhanced) releases.
It is more along the lines of this product:
http://www.udrw.com/en/index.php
1) Something not connected or wrong in the "hardware" between chair and PC.

Guess thats what went wrong for me . Dont flash your controler at 4 in the morning

I checked the udrw site some time ago , to me they sound like a lockiteasy stick with 2 partitions
AND a CDFS "partition" ? And I still dont get what those U3 sticks are , tried to find some technical info on them ,
but all I can find is their site and some forum posts from dis-satisfied users about how to REMOVE the stuff
theres even a tool for that floating around. Think ill buy one next time theres some $ to spend