Can boot BartPE from 4GB USB stick but not from 4GB SD card - why? Options

[sjdigital]

I have an eee PC with an SD card slot that shows up in the boot menu as a USB drive. I have installed BartPE on a 2GB SD card using pe2usb and the server 2003 SP1 files and the eee boots from this with no problem. But as I want to be able to include an Acronis image of my C: drive on the SD card to give me a very handy emergency kit, I need a 4GB card. I bought a 4 GB Transcend card, installed BartPE as before but it won't boot. However, I have also installed BartPE on a 4 GB Sandisk Cruzer USB stick and the machine will boot quite happily from it. What is the difference between the two, and how can I get the SD to boot and also give me the full 4 GB for the image file and other bits and pieces that I might want to put there. If it works on a stick, why not on a card?

I've hunted through the forum, but to be honest, most of the threads become way too technical for me. I really need a simple solution, if there is one, please!

[jaclaz]

I've hunted through the forum, but to be honest, most of the threads become way too technical for me. I really need a simple solution, if there is one, please!

EVERYONE "need" simple solutions , unfortunately not always they are available.

Let's start from the beginning:
1) How was the card fdisked/partitioned (what program was used, under which OS, which size is/are the partition/partitions)?
2) How was the partition(s) formatted (what program was used, under which OS, which filesystem(s) were used?
3) Be more specific, "it won't boot" tells almost nothing:
does it start loading?
does it show an error message (white on black background)?
does it simply hangs with a blinking cursor or a "j" or "g" in top left of screen?
does it show a BSOD (white on blue backgrond)? if yes, which error number?

jaclaz

[Ed_P]

Related posting: http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?s=&...st&p=149186

[sjdigital]

Let's start from the beginning:
1) How was the card fdisked/partitioned (what program was used, under which OS, which size is/are the partition/partitions)?
2) How was the partition(s) formatted (what program was used, under which OS, which filesystem(s) were used?

I simply popped the card in the slot and ran pe2usb using the -f option to format the card. This is what I did with the USB stick and it worked fine.

3) Be more specific, "it won't boot" tells almost nothing:
does it start loading?

Dunno! See next answer!

does it show an error message (white on black background)?
does it simply hangs with a blinking cursor or a "j" or "g" in top left of screen?

Yep, that's it - a blinking white cursor in top left.

does it show a BSOD (white on blue backgrond)? if yes, which error number?

Nope, it doesn't get that far.

Sorry not to be more technically specific, but I'm way out of my depth here and thought that what would work on a USB stick would also work on an SD card.

So all help gratefully received.

[sjdigital]

Related posting: http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?s=&...st&p=149186

As you will see, I've already been there and as I write this the last post on that thread was mine! It was a great help in helping me understand the issue of the Server 2003 files, etc., and it was as a result of that thread that I got BartPE to work on a 2 GB SD card and a 4 GB USB stick. But I am still stuck getting the 4 GB SD card to work, as my reply to jaclaz will attest!

[jaclaz]

Ok, the "blinking cursor" is usually due to a wrong geometry/filesystem in the bootsector or MBR.

Sometimes this happens with pe2usb, and even with other utilities, although I've never been able to actually pinpoint where the problem is.

Using a FAT32 filesystem appears to increase greatly the problem, but it should not be the case for a 2Gb card.

Have you a USB to SD card adapter (to be used on a "normal" PC) don't you?

If yes, you can use allright the HP USB utility to try re-formatting the SD card.

In some cases it may be needed to zero out the first few sectors of the device, in order to make sure that there are no "leftovers" of a previous "wrong" formatting attempt.

Let's start with the easy way, and see what happens.

First try:
Read FAQ#4 here:
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...SB/USBfaqs.html
try using the HP USB utilty as described and report.
(while you are there read the other FAQ's as well)

If the above does not produce a bootable device,
Second try:
Get petousb here:
http://gocoding.com/page.php?al=petousb
Browse the related thread here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=13784
and try using it.

If the above does not work,
Third try:
fuwi's batch:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=21702

If nothing of the above works, take your time, go through this thread, where a similar troubleshooting has been carried on, produce wth HDHacker a copy of MBR and bootsector, and I'll have a look at them and (hopefully ) fix them:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=21049

jaclaz

This post has been edited by jaclaz: Feb 8 2009, 01:24 PM

[wimb_2]

Use Make_USB.cmd from USB_XP_Setup package and
Select H for using HP Format Utility and use NTFS FileSystem.

More Info on USB_XP_Setup in Boot Land Forum
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/?showtopic=5306

[jaclaz]

and use NTFS FileSystem.

Just a word of WARNING:

NTFS is NOT RECOMMENDED for Flash memory based devices, nor is ANY other journaled or semi-journaled filesystem.

The amount of write cycles of these devices is finite, and relatively low.

Though newish controllers have better wear-leveling algorithms, and reliability of memory chips has greatly increased, there still is a risk of prematurely wearing the device.

Due to the everyday decreasing price of these devices, it is becoming less important than it used to be, but still it is something to consider, expecially in terms of (possible) data loss.

Please note that this is not intended as a FAT16 vs. FAT32 vs. NTFS type of comment, each filesystem has it's own advantages and it's own drawbacks, NTFS is an excellent filesystem, offering a number of features not available with elder FAT ones, but these come at a price.

jaclaz

[sjdigital]

Guys, I really do appreciate you taking the time to try and help me and I’ve gone through your suggestions as best I can.

Using a FAT32 filesystem appears to increase greatly the problem, but it should not be the case for a 2Gb card.

I have no problems with a 2GBcard; it’s 4GB one I’m having difficulty with.

Have you a USB to SD card adapter (to be used on a "normal" PC) don't you?
If yes, you can use allright the HP USB utility to try re-formatting the SD card.

My eee PC has an SD card slot which is what I’m using, not a separate USB card reader.

In some cases it may be needed to zero out the first few sectors of the device, in order to make sure that there are no "leftovers" of a previous "wrong" formatting attempt.

I’m afraid I simply don’t understand this!

First try:
Read FAQ#4 here:
http://home.graffiti.net/jaclaz:graffiti.n...SB/USBfaqs.html
try using the HP USB utilty as described and report.

This produces a bootable device in that I get a C: prompt. But then what?

Second try:
Get petousb here:
http://gocoding.com/page.php?al=petousb
Browse the related thread here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=13784
and try using it.

Using petousb brings me back to the original problem I had with getting BartPE onto a 2GB SD card and that was the BSOD which was only solved by using the server 2003 SP1 files and pe2usb.

If the above does not work,
Third try:
fuwi's batch:
www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=21702

This also produced the BSOD

If nothing of the above works, take your time, go through this thread, where a similar troubleshooting has been carried on, produce wth HDHacker a copy of MBR and bootsector, and I'll have a look at them and (hopefully ) fix them:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=21049

I’m sorry, but I simply got lost with this thread!

Use Make_USB.cmd from USB_XP_Setup package and
Select H for using HP Format Utility and use NTFS FileSystem.
More Info on USB_XP_Setup in Boot Land Forum
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/?showtopic=5306

Likewise with this thread – I really couldn’t make heads nor tails of it!
So I really do need that ‘simple’ solution!

[Ed_P]

So I really do need that ‘simple’ solution!

Since you have

I have an eee PC with an SD card slot that shows up in the boot menu as a USB drive.
....
I bought a 4 GB Transcend card
....
I have also installed BartPE on a 4 GB Sandisk Cruzer USB stick and the machine will boot quite happily from it.

a 'simple' solution would be to boot the Cruzer USB stick and backup to the Transgend card. And by having BartPE on a separate device it frees up space on the backup drive. And you can enhance, tweak and recreate the BartPE drive numerous times without risk to the backups.

[wimb_2]

Use Make_USB.cmd from USB_XP_Setup package and
Select H for using HP Format Utility and use NTFS FileSystem.
More Info on USB_XP_Setup in Boot Land Forum
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/?showtopic=5306

Likewise with this thread – I really couldn’t make heads nor tails of it!
So I really do need that ‘simple’ solution!

May be you are not yet aware of it,
but Make_USB.cmd is the simple solution that you are looking for.
Select H for using HP Format Utility and use NTFS FileSystem.

Download USB_XP_Setup

This post has been edited by wimb_2: Aug 24 2008, 04:41 AM

[jaclaz]

sjdigital,
I do understand that I "fed" you with an enormous amount of data, you'll need some time to understand them, and possibly you might not be able to get the hang of it easily.

Let's see if I can re-cap:
1) some BIOSes, setups, and what not have problems in booting from "strange" media. like USB connected devices or SD-cards.
2) the problem is worsened when using bigger-than-2-Gb media (i.e. bigger that the "standard" FAT16 filesystem limit) because you have to use either:
a. NTFS, as suggested by wimb, possibly using his batch, which (the NTFS filesystem NOT the batch ) has the theoretical durability problem I pointed out.
b. FAT32, which, due to yet to be fully disclosed reasons, does work generally with DOS bootsectors, but it does not in some cases with NT/2K/XP/2003 ones.

a. above is a working, easy solution, to try and help you solving b. I need to see the MBR and bootsector of your SD card.

You must understand that the blinking cursor is a problem related to "actual booting", first phase of booting, whilst the BSOD (if, as I expect, is a 0x0000007b "Inaccessible boot device") error is due to DIFFERENT causes, happening in second phase of booting, and thus needs DIFFERENT remedies.

Let's go in steps, OK?

1) try using wimb's batch (simply run it following the instructions by wimb) and see if it works (no blinking cursor) and you get a BSOD or not
2) if you get the BSOD, post it's exact error code and we will try and help you in solving that problem
3) if it does not, you are at least temporarily set allright

At this point, if the above works, you have to decide whether you are willing to go on with NTFS
possibly risking a premature failure of the SD card.
If you are, like me, cheap and curious , do the following:
1) repeat the steps that led you to a booting, FAT32 formatted SD card booting to DOS (the C:\ prompt) or re-use fuwi's batch
2) Download HDhacker:
http://dimio.altervista.org/eng/
and use it, from a normally booted 2K/XP/2003, to backup BOTH the MBR (Physical Drive) and BootSector (Logical Drive) of the SD-card, compressing them in a .zip file
3) post the file, so that I can have a look at them and hopefully give you further instructions

In other words:
a. "the blinking cursor problem" can be resolved either by using NTFS (read wimb's batch) or using FAT32 with DOS bootsector (read fuwi's batch)
b. once resolved in either way the above, you may experoence a BSOD 0x0000007b, which must be solved differently, typically one of the following:
1. using Dietmar's modified NTDETECT.COM (works in a number of cases)
2. using a RAMDISK approach (always works, but has limits)
3. editing the Registry changing the settings for USB support (may be needed/work supplementally to 1. in some cases)

I hope that the above is clear enough to give you, if not a solution, an initial understanding of the paths that need to be followed.

jaclaz

[sjdigital]

@Ed P

In some ways I have a simple solution - I can simply keep my 4 GB USB stick as my repair kit, complete with BartPE and the C: drive image. It's just that an SD card takes up even less space in my bag, and of course having started down this road I'd like to solve the problem.

@wimb_2

Thanks for this suggestion - I'll aim to give it a try

@jaclaz

Many thanks for taking so much trouble to set out the steps you have suggested. I'll endeavour to work my way through them and report back. But at the end of the day, I really don't understand what I'm doing (as you may have gathered!) so consequently struggle to understand why I can get a 4GB USB stick to do what I want, but not a 4 GB SD card.

But I will persevere and hopefully come up with a solution

Thanks again, guys.

[jetman516]

@jaclaz

In following this thread, there is one potential alternate solution which hasn't been mentioned. Haven't tried this yet, so I'm not certain of its feasibility: but how about spliting the media into two FAT16 partitions ?

Specifically, it mite be pos to format the flash device into two FAT16 partitions, then boot from the 1st partition and load data (documents, disc images, etc) from the 2nd partition. Using the 2nd partition for data really should (famous last words) work w/o any additional complication. Actually, since the 2nd partition isn't used for booting, it could probably be formatted as FAT32.

Anyway it's an idea....Jet

This post has been edited by jetman516: Aug 25 2008, 08:52 AM

[jaclaz]

@jaclaz

In following this thread, there is one potential alternate solution which hasn't been mentioned. Haven't tried this yet, so I'm not certain of its feasibility: but how about spliting the media into two FAT16 partitions ?

Specifically, it mite be pos to format the flash device into two FAT16 partitions, then boot from the 1st partition and load data (documents, disc images, etc) from the 2nd partition. Using the 2nd partition for data really should (famous last words) work w/o any additional complication. Actually, since the 2nd partition isn't used for booting, it could probably be formatted as FAT32.

Anyway it's an idea....Jet

Well, it's a "partial" idea.

The idea is not only "old", but actually how ANY drive should be partitioned.

The problem is whether the SD card is seen as "Removable" (no more than one partition accessible from NT based windows) or "Fixed" (any number of partitions accessible) or, if it is possible to install either the cfadisk or dummydisk filter drivers to make a "Removable" seen as "Fixed".

Read this:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...c=21895&hl=
AND links therein.



jaclaz

[cdob]

There is no simple solution because there are different BIOS.

struggle to understand why I can get a 4GB USB stick to do what I want, but not a 4 GB SD card.

I understand, you use FAT16 at 64KB clusters at USB stick.
http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?id=34498&p=2

SD card booting does fail.

Either there are different MBR at USB stick and SD card.
Or BIOS handle drives different.

Different approaches:
make a clone, copy USB stick sector per sector to SD card.

Or format SD card with another tool. petousb and HP format tool has been named already.
Ufdprep.exe from XP Embedded is another solution. This create a MBR and format to FAT32.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa940960.aspx

First follow jaclaz's advice.
Remember a BSOD 0x7b is a good step. This prooves, initial booting does work.
Most likely a BSOD 0x7b can be solved in one way or another.

[sjdigital]

Once again, guys, thank you for taking so much time to share with me your profound knowledge of the weird world of USB booting. I really do appreciate your patience with a complete novice in this area.

I started to reply to your various suggestions by listing what I had managed to achieve so far, i.e. using the HP USB boot utility, using petousb and then pe2usb with the additional Server 2003 SP 1 files setupldr.bin and ramdisk.sy_/sys. I redid each option in order to be accurate about what exactly the result was in each case, i.e. C:\ prompt from the HP utility, BSOD 0x07B with petousb, and my final step was to use Bart's pe2usb. The result of this was the blinking cursor in the upper left corner as before but, to my great surprise, as I was writing this up (I'm using another computer to make this post) it suddenly started to load the RAMDISK image and I got my fully functioning BartPE right before my eyes! I restarted the eee PC, copied the Acronis C: drive image to the SD card, rebooted from it and, bingo! I had exactly what I wanted: a bootable 4 GB SD card with BartPE with the Acronis plugin, and the C: drive Acronis image.

I have no idea why this suddenly worked after previous failed attempts, but I'm glad finally to have resolved the problem.

In the end, none of your suggestions actually did the trick, but without your persistence and determination to find a solution for me I probably wouldn't have bothered retrying pe2usb as I only did so in order to be able to report more accurately exactly what the result was, and how long I left the cursor blinking. And as the loading RAMDISK message occurred after perhaps some 20 seconds of blinking cursor, perhaps I simply hadn't given it enough time before. But now that I've tried it a couple of times, it seems to start loading the RAMDISK image load much more quickly, i.e. in about 5 or 6 seconds.

So success at the end, with the added bonus of an interesting wander through the world of USB booting.

Thanks again for all your help,

SJ

[jaclaz]

So success at the end, with the added bonus of an interesting wander through the world of USB booting.

Thanks again for all your help,

SJ

You're welcome, happy that you succeeded, though, don't take it the wrong way, it's sad that we could not use your experience to know more about the problem and find the "right" solution.

It is something like an infinite number of monkeys were typing on an infinite number of typewriters and happened to write by pure chance all Shakespeare's dramas.

You got where you wanted to go, but not knowing HOW you got there.

jaclaz

[sjdigital]

it's sad that we could not use your experience to know more about the problem and find the "right" solution. ......You got where you wanted to go, but not knowing HOW you got there.

jaclaz

But it seems to me that my end result was what I was expecting but couldn't initially achieve (perhaps because I didn't give it enough time to boot), i.e. using pe2usb to create a 4 GB SD boot disk just the same as it did for a 4 GB USB stick and a 2 GB SD card. It was seemingly having to adopt a totally different approach when using the 4 GB SD card that stymied me.

But as to how I got to any of these solutions - well, smoke and mirrors comes to mind!

Thanks again,

SJ