Multiboot install order? Options

[HardDriv'n]

Okay one think I'd like to get out in the open now is... I hate the default Windows bootloaders, hate them... That being said I have multibooted Windows ME/2K/XP together before.
What I'd like to do is the following:

1.) Keep the Windows installs independant of each other, having them all recognize themselves as "C:" during install. And, I want the option to selectively hide them from each other.

2.) Install a Linux distro along side the previously mentioned Windows.

3.) Install Windows ME on the the second of two hard drives (the slave), basically asking to install it where it can't be installed as "C:".

4.) Install a bootloader outside of any of the OSes to the MBR on the hard drive, before I even install the first OS.

Could anyone help me with the needed install order, using just the default Windows/Linux bootloaders, or provide me with the reference to a bootloader/utility that would allow me to do the rest? I'd even be willing to give grub4dos a second look if I thought it'd do the job. (I had a previously frustrating experience trying to get USBs to boot.)

This post has been edited by HardDriv'n: Oct 9 2009, 09:28 AM

[jaclaz]

I'd even be willing to give grub4dos a second look if I thought it'd do the job. (I had a previously frustrating experience trying to get USBs to boot.)

Happy that you are so "magnificent" as to give it a second chance.

Cannot say if I will be able to make you think that grub4dos would do the job. (just for the record it would actually do it )

Points 1), 2) and 4) have more or less two answers:

1. OS-BS MBLDR
2. grub4dos

A third possibility might be the Terabyte Unlimiuted free MBR utility:
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads-free-software.htm


MBLDR (and the Terabyte MBR) can be combined with other bootloaders (bootsector based), such as Syslinux or even grub4dos NOT installed to MBR (and first few hidden sectors).
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=334

That is if you want to "cross-hide" partitions when booting from the MBR.

Point 3) is the trickiest part.

It may be doable, BUT it will need some (read a lot ) of experiments.

grub4dos can do almost "anything", but the Windows 9x/Me install is "picky", you may need to use something similar to the old XOSL tricks, really cannot say if grub4dos drive re-mapping will be working:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/?showtopic=4508&st=3


As an (advanced) example of what we can do with grub4dos:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?...ic=7138&hl=

jaclaz

[HardDriv'n]

Okay after much reading, I have this question.

Could I install each Windows one by one, making the previous Window's install partition hidden so it would not be recognized. I'd install the Linux last. Unhide the Windows OS partitions, and install Linux's packaged GRUB bootloader to the MBR.

Could I then replace the legacy GRUB installed to the MBR with GRUB4DOS, or is that doing it backwards?

[HardDriv'n]

Happy that you are so "magnificent" as to give it a second chance.

Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression...

And... you by far are the most knowledgable person I've seen concerning these matters, thanks for the help.

[jaclaz]

Could I install each Windows one by one, making the previous Window's install partition hidden so it would not be recognized.

Sure you can, but it isn't a "good" solution (as I see it) as you will have problems "exchanging data" among the different OS's.
Now, some psychological terrorism :

Besides, you will have on each OS, the partition letter set to "C:" before or later you will boot in, say, 2K and thinking you are booted in, say, ME, you will delete a file in the ME partition thinking to be deleting one in the 2K one.
After some time, you will boot to the 2K partition, and thinking you evidently did not delete it, you will delete the copy of it on the 2K parttion.
Then you will defrag all your drives.
And some time later you will get mad at finding that file of which you deleted the only two copis you had.

I'd install the Linux last. Unhide the Windows OS partitions, and install Linux's packaged GRUB bootloader to the MBR.

Of course doable, but why?
You can choose to NOT install GRUB anywhere (and use the grub4dos you already have) or install GRUB to the partition bootsector.

Could I then replace the legacy GRUB installed to the MBR with GRUB4DOS, or is that doing it backwards?

Sure you can, but I don't see the point in installing grub4dos to overwrite it with GRUB to overwrite the latter with grub4dos again.

Please note how for such a setup grub4dos is NOT "needed", all you need is a MBR code that hides "everything but the chosen partition", and each OS can boot with it's own bootsectors/bootloaders.

MBLDR or the Terabyte MBR seem like the most "compact" solutions (as they both only take the 512 bytes of the MBR), anything else would be only "needed" for other reasons, like a nice bootscreen.
You could manage what you want even with good ol' XOSL, if you are allright with either dedicate a (very small) partition to it or are ok with the several files it needs in the root directory of a FAT (if I remmber right) partition:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1106

jaclaz

[HardDriv'n]

Sure you can, but it isn't a "good" solution (as I see it) as you will have problems "exchanging data" among the different OS's.

I don't want each OS to not recognize the other partitions. I need the Win2K/Linux to be able to recognize the other partitions, with the ME/XP being the only ones isolated. I thought GRUB/GRUB4DOS could selectively hide partitions.

Of course doable, but why?
You can choose to NOT install GRUB anywhere (and use the grub4dos you already have) or install GRUB to the partition bootsector.
...
Sure you can, but I don't see the point in installing grub4dos to overwrite it with GRUB to overwrite the latter with grub4dos again.

I don't know how to install GRUB4DOS to the hard drive's MBR. Wouldn't it also be over-written by the Windows installs, especially thinking XP here?

MBLDR or the Terabyte MBR seem like the most "compact" solutions (as they both only take the 512 bytes of the MBR), anything else would be only "needed" for other reasons, like a nice bootscreen.

Yes a splashscreen would be nice...

It would also in effect act as a BIOS extender for me, allowing me to load properly formatted USB drives manually. I"ll be installing on my latest (~2008) PC as well if it works, because it doesn't have USB booting support either.

[jaclaz]

The MBR is NOT normally affected by OS installs (unless of course you tell them to do it).
MBR code is normally changed ONLY when partitioning (under a given OS) the disk.
All other changes to the MBR are "voluntary", like when installing Linux, telling it to put GRUB in the MBR).

The bootsector of the Active partition WILL be replaced by each OS install with the bootsector invoking it's own specific bootloader.

I don't want each OS to not recognize the other partitions. I need the Win2K/Linux to be able to recognize the other partitions, with the ME/XP being the only ones isolated. I thought GRUB/GRUB4DOS could selectively hide partitions.

Sure grub4dos can do it, but the above is NOT what you said before:

Could I install each Windows one by one, making the previous Window's install partition hidden so it would not be recognized. I'd install the Linux last. Unhide the Windows OS partitions, and install Linux's packaged GRUB bootloader to the MBR.

I don't know how to install GRUB4DOS to the hard drive's MBR. Wouldn't it also be over-written by the Windows installs, especially thinking XP here?

You have a few possibilities :
http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/Grub4dos.htm
http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/files/...ll_dos.htm#dos3
http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/files/...inux.htm#linux4
http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/files/...ws.htm#windows4
AND:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7328
AND:
http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8986

Yes a splashscreen would be nice...

A quick preview of examples of the two available methods in grub4dos (splash or gfxmenu):
http://www.msfn.org/board/alternative-crea...399-page-5.html

It would also in effect act as a BIOS extender for me, allowing me to load properly formatted USB drives manually. I"ll be installing on my latest (~2008) PC as well if it works, because it doesn't have USB booting support either.

I don't get it. Are you telling me that a 2008 machine has NOT USB booting support?
If you need USB booting support on a PC that misses it, you will need PLoP:
http://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager.html

I have the impression that you have not yet a clear idea (or failed to commuicate it ) about what you would like to have and how the setup should be in your mind.

Why don't you try to describe again and completely what you would like to setup?

jaclaz

[HardDriv'n]

The MBR is NOT normally affected by OS installs (unless of course you tell them to do it).
MBR code is normally changed ONLY when partitioning (under a given OS) the disk.
All other changes to the MBR are "voluntary", like when installing Linux, telling it to put GRUB in the MBR).

I must have been confused. Isn't there a difference between a MBR on the HD (sda), and a MBR installed to an OS partition (sda1)?

Sure grub4dos can do it, but the above is NOT what you said before:

Post #1: ... And, I want the option to selectively hide them from each other.

You have a few possibilities :

I'll have to more reading it seems, but I currently don't have any OSes installed. I'll have to try installing it through a Windows 98/ME startup floppy, or through a Live Windows/Linux disc.

I don't get it. Are you telling me that a 2008 machine has NOT USB booting support?

Yes, my HP with Vista 64bit. At the time I didn't know anything about USB booting.

Thanks for the help. I'll have to get back to you when I understand more about the MBR, likely after reading more of the articles at Bootland.

[jaclaz]

I must have been confused. Isn't there a difference between a MBR on the HD (sda), and a MBR installed to an OS partition (sda1)?

Sure.
The MBR (Master Boot Record) is only one per physical DISK (and it's the first sector of the device). The MBR is often called IPL -Initial Program Load - since after all it was IBM that started it all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_Progr...C_compatible.29

Each partition has a PBR (Partition Boot Record) or bootsector, which is the first (or first few) sector(s) of the partition.

BIOS accesses MBR, MBR loads (normally) the bootsector (PBR) of the Active partition, and booting continues.

This should clear you this part:
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/multiboot.html

A "special" MBR like MBLDR can let you choose which partition to make active, which ones to hide, and so on, before loading the PBR.
A bootloader like grub4dos can do more things, like bypassing completely the PBR or bootsector and directly chainload the OS system files.

jaclaz

[Wendy]

For installing various operating systems.

Windows NT 3.51 to 5.2 (2003)

You can install these in any order, as long as the following are noted.

1. After each install, one must restore the latest version of NTLDR NTDETECT.COM Install here means service packs as noted.

2. Windows NT 3.x should be installed in a FAT16 partition. Later versions update the NTFS, which prevents 3.x from booting. NT 3.50 and 3.10 need to have some files edited to allow booting from pentium systems.

3. Windows NT 4.0 needs to have sp 4 or later (eg 6a) installed before booting into 2K or later.

4. Windows 2K needs to have at least sp2 installed, if OS/2 boot manager is present.

Installing DOS, Windows 9x

You should get hold of bootpart.exe from http://www.winimage.com to install these. This permits rewriting of the boot sector and creating boot partitions. Note that bootpart.exe handles only msdos and win9x, but a spot of patching would allow msdos support to be replaced by pcdos.

DOS and Windows 9x needs to boot from the active partition, but the bulk of the files can be on a different partition.

Multiple versions of Windows 9x can be installed, but the trick here is to use a common DOS and a boot configuration menu. There are alternate multi-9x booters available for free.

OS/2.

OS/2 installs in a multiboot system by using a boot manager. You can install the OS on any partition that it supports, but it installs an active partition boot manager. Bootpart can launch the boot manager from the system manager.

Limits of NTLDR is eight items, NT3/4 comes with two items, but one can be removed.