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Ed_P
OK, I've finally started to upgrade to Windows 7 and I already have some questions.

My desktop pc has two hdds, one is hard wired into the case and the other is on an IDE slide out drawer. The hard wired one is the primary hdd that I boot from and contains C: plus several other non-OS partitions and boots to Windows XP. Into the 2nd drive I put a 80GB hdd which I formatted as my Z: drive and used as the target for my Windows 7 install.

My goal was/is to leave the primary hdd alone, create the Windows 7 system and move my data/utilities/games/downloads/etc folders to the Windows 7 hdd then swap the drives.

Two questions so far:

When I removed the Windows 7 install CD and rebooted my machine I got the Windows Boot manager screen. I was expecting to see my Windows XP boot menu and use GRUB4DOS to boot the Windows 7 drive. Did the install of Windows 7 screw up the MBR on my primary hdd?

When I swap the two hdds will my Windows 7 hdd automatically change drive letters to C:??
oscar
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 25 2011, 05:04 PM) *
Two questions so far:

Did the install of Windows 7 screw up the MBR on my primary hdd?
Yes, but you should may to boot XP from W7 boot manager.

When I swap the two hdds will my Windows 7 hdd automatically change drive letters to C:??
No


Windows XP or W7 wil not boot if you swap hdds.
You must first swap disks and then install again W7 and XP
jaclaz
QUOTE (oscar @ Apr 26 2011, 05:17 AM) *
Windows XP or W7 wil not boot if you swap hdds.
You must first swap disks and then install again W7 and XP


Yes it will, if you do a correct procedure BEFORE swapping them, and No smile.gif, drive letter of the system drive is "carved in stone" wink.gif.


QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 25 2011, 10:04 PM) *
Two questions so far:

When I removed the Windows 7 install CD and rebooted my machine I got the Windows Boot manager screen. I was expecting to see my Windows XP boot menu and use GRUB4DOS to boot the Windows 7 drive. Did the install of Windows 7 screw up the MBR on my primary hdd?

Sure smile.gif, you now have on the "internal fixed" ("FIRST") hard disk:
  1. the Windows 7 MBR
  2. the WIndows 7 bootsector in the Active Primary partition
  3. the Windows 7 BOOTMGR in the Active Primary partition (which is what is actually booted)
  4. the Windows 7 \boot\BCD registry hive that replaces the BOOT.INI in Windows 7 booting.


Verify that you still have NTLDR and NTDETECT.COM and BOOT.INI. (the Windows 7 setup should - if properly used - have added an entry in \boot\BCD to boot your previous XP install anyway.

You can use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT52 to restore the MBR and the bootsector CODE to the XP one.

Then use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT60 on the second drive, copy to it BOOTMGR and the \boot\BCD and try chainloading from grub4dos the MBR (or the bootsector or the BOOTMGR) on the second "on tray" drive.

QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 25 2011, 10:04 PM) *
Two questions so far:
When I swap the two hdds will my Windows 7 hdd automatically change drive letters to C:??


Disk Signature and DosDevices key in Registry are there EXACTLY to prevent booting from the "wrong" disk drive AND changing letters of booting/system volumes.
Since you installed Windows 7 on a drive Z:, you will have a number of hardcoded paths to Z:\whatever\... if you are not OK with this, you'd better re-install after having removed the "internal" hard disk, (and install to C:\) as oscar suggested.

jaclaz
Ed_P
Thanks guys. smile.gif

Surprise, surprise. This isn't going to be easy. mad.gif

I was hoping that by using a 2nd drive my primary drive would go unscathed. I'm already fighting with Win 7 to get it to support my ATI Video card.

@oscar

So apparently I should install Win 7 to my primary hdd's C: drive. Can I take the files & folders currently on my Z: drive and copy them to my C: drive?

QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 26 2011, 03:45 AM) *
No smile.gif, drive letter of the system drive is "carved in stone" wink.gif.

So that stone will show C: or Z:?

QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 26 2011, 03:45 AM) *
Verify that you still have NTLDR and NTDETECT.COM and BOOT.INI. (the Windows 7 setup should - if properly used - have added an entry in \boot\BCD to boot your previous XP install anyway.

Yes I do have those files. And in the Windows 7 boot screen I have 3 entries, one for my previous Windows install, one for Windows 7, which is the default, and one for GRUB, which I was surprised to see. I did have it as an option in my boot.ini file.

QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 26 2011, 03:45 AM) *
You can use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT52 to restore the MBR and the bootsector CODE to the XP one.

Then use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT60 on the second drive, copy to it BOOTMGR and the \boot\BCD and try chainloading from grub4dos the MBR (or the bootsector or the BOOTMGR) on the second "on tray" drive.

I have the primary hdd's MBR backed up, in addition to all it's partitions. Could I backup the current MBR, restore it the the 2nd hdd, then restore the backed up MBR of the primary hdd to the primary hdd? Would that work?

QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 26 2011, 03:45 AM) *
Since you installed Windows 7 on a drive Z:, you will have a number of hardcoded paths to Z:\whatever\...

If the hardcoded paths are in the Registry I have no problem editing them to be C:.
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 27 2011, 01:35 AM) *
I have the primary hdd's MBR backed up, in addition to all it's partitions. Could I backup the current MBR, restore it the the 2nd hdd, then restore the backed up MBR of the primary hdd to the primary hdd? Would that work?

NO.
The MBR (and the bootsector also) is made of TWO parts:
  1. DATA
  2. CODE


CODE is generic (and specific to the actual OS the MBR came from).

DATA is specific to the disk and contains:
  • partition table
  • disk signature


You CANNOT backup a MBR and restore it to another drive (unless you want to "clone" it.

Right now your first hard disk MBR contains:
  1. first hard disk DATA (partition table and disk signature)
  2. Windows 7 CODE


Right now the bootsector in the Active partition on your first hard disk contains:
  1. Active partition on first hard disk DATA (volume label and geometry)
  2. Windows 7 CODE


Before your first hard disk MBR contained:
  1. first hard disk DATA (partition table and disk signature)
  2. Windows XP CODE


Before the bootsector in the Active partition on your first hard disk contained:
  1. Active partition on first hard disk DATA (volume label and geometry)
  2. Windows xp CODE


If you have a backup of the whole MBR and of the whole bootsector you can restore them to the first hard disk and be in the same booting situation as before, without needing to use MBRFIX and bootsect. (which would replace the CODE leaving the DATA UNTOUCHED).

The hardcoded path are obviously in the Registry but thinking to manually editing them with Regedit is pretty much a NON-SMART idea. w00t.gif
(you are very welcome to attempt it and consequently botch an otherwise perfectly good 7 install though devil.gif )

You DO NOT *need* NOR *want* to install 7 on the SAME drive (in the sense of partition/volume, NOT "disk") you installed XP, as you will create more problems that you can count. Another drive/partition in the same disk is OK, BUT NOT the same drive.

Why don't you do like all people should do?
Plan BEFORE doing things, evaluate pro's and con's and only THEN do things? unsure.gif

The easy thing to do is (in your setup) has been already told you.
This would leave XP "as it was before" and allow you to boot through grub4dos the Windows 7 install on the second drive (with the letter Z: you assigned it), if you remove the first drive and use it as "first drive" you will be able to boot directly in Windows 7 (still with letter Z: assigned to it).

If this is not your wanted result, express your wishes, and I will try suggesting you the easiest path to get it (if possible).
While you think about this, do READ this (simply read "7" instead of "Vista" ph34r.gif):
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/
(AT LEAST these pages):
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/mbr.html
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/articles/drive_letters.html
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/multiboot.html
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/system.html

jaclaz
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 27 2011, 03:55 AM) *
You DO NOT *need* NOR *want* to install 7 on the SAME drive (in the sense of partition/volume, NOT "disk") you installed XP, as you will create more problems that you can count. Another drive/partition in the same disk is OK, BUT NOT the same drive.

Why don't you do like all people should do?
Plan BEFORE doing things, evaluate pro's and con's and only THEN do things? unsure.gif

The easy thing to do is (in your setup) has been already told you.
This would leave XP "as it was before" and allow you to boot through grub4dos the Windows 7 install on the second drive (with the letter Z: you assigned it), if you remove the first drive and use it as "first drive" you will be able to boot directly in Windows 7 (still with letter Z: assigned to it).

If this is not your wanted result, express your wishes, and I will try suggesting you the easiest path to get it (if possible).

I plan things by trying things to find out what things work and what things don't work.

The goal is to upgrade my XP system to Win 7. The upgrade will take time, weeks not hours, and during that time period I will need to be booting my current XP system periodically, as such I thought using a separate drive would keep the XP drive safe while I experimented with Win 7.

In a normal upgrade the new OS is installed to the C: drive. And while Win 7 doesn't support a direct upgrade from XP I believe it's default install location is the C: drive. If doing the upgrade on the C: drive allows me to continue to boot to XP periodically I have no problem with doing that.

Continuing to build Win 7 on the 2nd hdd which I will not be able to boot except via GRUB4DOS when I swap the drives is not what I want. And reinstalling Win 7 on it after spending weeks getting it to where I want it to be so it will boot directly is counter productive.
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 27 2011, 10:12 PM) *
In a normal upgrade the new OS is installed to the C: drive. And while Win 7 doesn't support a direct upgrade from XP I believe it's default install location is the C: drive. If doing the upgrade on the C: drive allows me to continue to boot to XP periodically I have no problem with doing that.

Continuing to build Win 7 on the 2nd hdd which I will not be able to boot except via GRUB4DOS when I swap the drives is not what I want. And reinstalling Win 7 on it after spending weeks getting it to where I want it to be so it will boot directly is counter productive.

Actually what I tried (evidently failing) to tell you is:
  1. DO NOT install 7 to the SAME volume where XP is installed as this will VERY likely generate a number of conflicts that are - besides COMPLETELY UNneeded - also extremely difficult to solve (IF solvable at all).
  2. you CAN install Windows 7 on a volume on the 2nd disk, and have it have the C: drive letter (when booted in Windows 7) and have ANOTHER letter (say Z:) when booted XP
  3. once you have properly setup the system, you can boot (in the "transition time") ANY of the TWO WITHOUT an actual need for grub4dos
  4. ONCE transition is complete you simply remove the (currently) first disk and continue booting only Windows 7 (again WiTHOUT any *need*) of using grub4dos


The above can be done in NO time if you know how to do it and do it WHEN installing 7, NOW, that you ALREADY installed 7, the faster and less troublesome way is to re-install, this time properly and following a plan, Windows 7.

Of course you are very welcome smile.gif to take the long and winding road and continue fiddling with your current "wrong" 7 install, only, I told you that it is both long and winding wink.gif and most probably leading to failure ph34r.gif.

jaclaz
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 27 2011, 05:54 PM) *
[*]you CAN install Windows 7 on a volume on the 2nd disk, and have it have the C: drive letter (when booted in Windows 7) and have ANOTHER letter (say Z:) when booted XP

How?

At this point I have a 2nd hdd with Win 7 on it that I can't boot standalone because all the boot code is on the 1st hdd.


paraglider
It happened automatically last time I installed windows 7 into a second primary hard disk. If you want to make it standalone then copy the boot folder from your first primary hard drive to the win 7 primary hard drive then use bootsect to install the win 7 boot sector into your win 7 drive. You should then be able to use grub4dos from your first xp hard drive to boot the win 7 hard drive. I suspect you will need to swap the drives with grub4dos.

I used bootus to do that instead.

jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 28 2011, 01:09 AM) *
How?

By re-installing 7 AFTER having hidden partitions on first drive.
Once you have installed 7 you can unhide them allright.

QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 28 2011, 01:09 AM) *
At this point I have a 2nd hdd with Win 7 on it that I can't boot standalone because all the boot code is on the 1st hdd.

I told you how, paraglider told you how, but if you do not re-install, you'll still have it as Z:
Make sure that second disk has 7 MBR code.
Make sure that partition on second disk has 7 bootsector code.
Copy from first disk BOOTMGR and \boot\ Folder (particularly \boot\BCD) to partition on second disk.
Make sure partition is Primary and Active.
Try booting WITHOUT first disk connected.


jaclaz
Ed_P
-Update-

I found out what part of my problem was, I had run the Win 7 install from my Win XP system rather than from booting the DVD. Booting and installing from the DVD did indeed put Win 7 on the 2nd hdd as drive C:. thumbsup.gif

Once I finish installing all the Windows Updates and MSE and fight with drivers for my graphics card I will restore my XP system's MBR & C: drive and try booting Win 7 via GRUB4DOS's grldr. I suspect all I will need to add is something like this
CODE
title Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1
.

Ed_P
The restore of my XP C: drive and MBR worked OK. However

QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 28 2011, 06:22 PM) *
I suspect all I will need to add is something like this
CODE
title Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

dubbio.gif That didn't work. I got an error that NTLDR couldn't be found.

And I don't see a boot folder on the Win 7 C: drive now. confused1.gif
Ed_P
Ok, I copied the boot folder and bootmgr file from the old XP C: partition to the Win 7 C: partition and ran bootsect /nt60 for the Win 7 drive. I then rebooted to the GRUB loader on the XP C: drive and booted Windows 7. thumbup.gif

I don't understand why when I installed Win 7 from the booted DVD that it didn't create the boot folder and bootmgr file on the Win 7 C: drive like it did when I did the install from my XP C: drive.

BTW the boot folder has a ream of what appears to be country subfolders, like cz-CZ, da-DK, de_DE, el-GR, etc. with each containing the file bootmgr.exe.mui.
paraglider
Its nothing to do with drive letters. Its all to do with how the hardware / bios orders the physical hard drives. Its not new to Win 7 - windows always places the initial boot loader files on to the first primary drive. If you had used your bios to make your windows 7 drive the first primary hard drive then the boot files would have been installed to your win 7 drive.

I suspect you can delete language resource files for the languages you don't use. Make sure you have a backup before deleting them.
Ed_P
Thanks guys worship.gif I really appreciate your help.

I'm sure I will be having more questions as I proceed down the Win 7 road. At this point I'm fighting with driver issues for some of the hardware.
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 29 2011, 06:08 PM) *
Thanks guys worship.gif I really appreciate your help.

I'm sure I will be having more questions as I proceed down the Win 7 road. At this point I'm fighting with driver issues for some of the hardware.

Good smile.gif, WHEN and IF unsure.gif you will enable bitlocker on that Windows 7 drive, you will also learn WHY you should have done what was told you about ALSO updating the MBR of the 2nd disk to 7 CODE. whistling.gif diablo.gif
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library...438(WS.10).aspx

cheers.gif
jaclaz
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 29 2011, 04:23 PM) *
WHEN and IF unsure.gif you will enable bitlocker on that Windows 7 drive, you will also learn WHY you should have done what was told you about ALSO updating the MBR of the 2nd disk to 7 CODE. whistling.gif diablo.gif

Isn't that what bootsect /NT60 did?? Per your instructions:
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Apr 26 2011, 03:45 AM) *
Then use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT60 on the second drive, copy to it BOOTMGR and the \boot\BCD and try chainloading from grub4dos the MBR (or the bootsector or the BOOTMGR) on the second "on tray" drive.

and I am able to boot the drive using grub4dos like you said.

BTW How would I chainload each of the options you mentioned. Currently I'm using (hd0)+1 which I assume is the bootsector.

And FWIW I have Windows 7 Home edition. Bitlocker is not an option.
jaclaz
If you don't have/use bitlocker, then NO problem whatsoever. smile.gif

The suggestion was of the type "better be safe than sorry".

Anyway, just for the record:
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 30 2011, 03:33 AM) *
Isn't that what bootsect /NT60 did?? Per your instructions:

Not really:
QUOTE
Then use MBRFIX and bootsect /NT60


QUOTE
Make sure that second disk has 7 MBR code.
Make sure that partition on second disk has 7 bootsector code.


Quite strangely wink.gif, bootsect (with /NT52 or NT60) changes the bootsector CODE (and NOT the MBR one), though the newisish version of bootsect that comes with 7 can also update the MBR CODE (in other words as usual the good MS guys contributed to create a great confusion, first by mis-describing a tool, and later by adding the missing feature to the by the time tool mis-named whistling.gif) :
http://neosmart.net/blog/2007/bootsectexe-...or-not-the-mbr/
http://neosmart.net/blog/2007/bootsectexe-...#comment-158481

http://blogs.technet.com/b/mniehaus/archiv...update-mbr.aspx

Current (7) version of bootsect.exe syntax:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library...577(WS.10).aspx

Alternative MBRFIX:
http://www.sysint.no/nedlasting/mbrfix.htm

You should be familiar with this latter tool wink.gif:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...=23946&st=4

You can also by-pass the bootsector alltogether (if you boot from grub4dos) by chainloading directly the /bootmgr, or chainload the MBR of second disk instead of the drive bootsector as we saw here:
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?sho...24300&st=78

Actually in this case, since you plan to later remove the currently first hard disk an directly boot the currently second hard disk, you should verify that chainloading the MBR works, so that once the BIOS will load it, it will work as well. smile.gif

There should be no *need* to swap hardisk when booting NT based systems, once the booting process is started the Disk Signature is used, so that you do not actually *need* the disk to be "first disk" in BIOS. dubbio.gif

cheers.gif

jaclaz
Ed_P
Thank you jaclaz.

In that my Win 7 DVD is 2 yrs old I suspect the bootsect.exe on it is also so I just ran the MBRFIX with the /win7 option to be sure the MBR is ok.

At this point can I invoke Win 7 via my XP boot.ini file? Something along the lines of:
CODE
multi(0)disk(1)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS = "Microsoft Windows 7 Home Edition" /fastdetect
Ed_P
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Apr 30 2011, 11:41 AM) *
At this point can I invoke Win 7 via my XP boot.ini file? Something along the lines of:
CODE
multi(0)disk(1)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS = "Microsoft Windows 7 Home Edition" /fastdetect

The answer is No. I tried it and got the following error msg:
CODE
Windows could not start because of a computer disk hardware
configuration problem.
Could not read from the selected boot disk. Check boot path
and disk hardware.
etc.

confused1.gif
Ed_P
Same error msg when I tried:
CODE
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(1)\WINDOWS = "Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium" /fastdetect
and
CODE
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(3)partition(1)\WINDOWS = "Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium" /fastdetect

frusty.gif
jaclaz
Look, if I tell you to READ something, you won't get away by NOT reading it. w00t.gif
READ:
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/multiboot.html

Do you need me to draw you a map? whistling.gif

There is ALREADY one!:










OF COURSE you cannot boot Windows 7 (or Vista ph34r.gif for that matters) by adding an arcpath to BOOT.INI!

What you attempted to do is ABSURD!

In a nutshell:

NT/2K/XP:
Loader: NTLDR
Hardware helper: NTDETECT.COM
Boot settings file: BOOT.INI

Vista ph34r.gif/7:
Loader(s): BOOTMGR/WINLOAD.EXE
Hardware helper: integrated in BOOTMGR
Boot settings file: \boot\BCD

You CANNOT load NT >=6 through NTLDR!

At the most you can use NTLDR bootsector chainloading feature to load a bootsector invoking BOOTMGR, but what would be the point of it?
(if you want NTLDR as "main" bootmanager you can chainload grub4dos from it and from the latter chainload the bootsctor or - advised - directly the BOOTMGR).

Please also note that whilst BOOT.INI is a "plain text" file, thus editable with almost anything, the BCD is a Registry hive and you need "special tools" to edit it.
Besides the "standard" BCDedit (one of the command line utilities with the most confusing syntax ever seen on earth ranting2.gif ) you can use any of the "third party" programs availabel with a GUI and much more friendly, see here:
http://reboot.pro/7476/

Remember that there are different versions of BOOTMGR and that they DO NOT "behave" all the same when you use some "advanced" features and also, not unlike the mentioned bootsect.exe, have slight syntax differences.

Just for the record, NOT "news":
http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=22964

cheers.gif
Wonko
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ May 2 2011, 03:23 AM) *
What you attempted to do is ABSURD!

Apparently.

Since Win 7's BCD provided the option to boot my Win XP hdd it seemed reasonable to think that XP's boot.ini could do the same for Win 7.

Thanks for the update.

Quick questiion, I've read that Win 7 has an option to run Win XP apps, is that option available in the Home edition?
psc
QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 2 2011, 04:28 PM) *
Since Win 7's BCD provided the option to boot my Win XP hdd it seemed reasonable to think that XP's boot.ini could do the same for Win 7.

Reasonable? hmm.gif
Propably Usail Bolt can run with my speed, but sorry, I have some difficulties to run with Usail Bolt's speed. wheelchair.gif
Simplier: All dogs are animals. But are all animals dogs?

Peter cheers.gif
Ed_P
OK, I've made some progress with my Win 7 upgrade. I have my IE Favorites loaded. My preferred browser SeaMonkey installed and fully functional with existing email folders. Flash, Java, and Shockwave support installed. My booking app installed and a favorite utility app or two installed. I also have it backed up using Win 7 backup apps and a Win 7 Repair CD created.

What I want to do now is partition the Win 7 drive. I was going to use BartPE and my old Partition Magic app but became concerned with using an old app and a new OS with a new booting style, ie Win 7's boot manager.

My BartPE system also has the Disk Partitioner plugin but it doesn't do partition resizing. Any recommendations for a plugin that works with Windows 7?

QUOTE (psc @ May 2 2011, 11:14 AM) *
Simplier: All dogs are animals. But are all animals dogs?

Reasonable and Logical are not the same thing. wink.gif In fact sometimes they are oxymons. heh.gif
oscar


What matters is that the old partition manager runs from Bartpe not from Win7 and also the partition is NTFS which is supported by the partition manager.
Ed_P
Perfect!! Thanks oscar. worship.gif
jaclaz
BE aware of this issue (if applicable to your partitioning scheme):
http://reboot.pro/9897/

cheers.gif
Wonko
Ed_P
Ok, the Win 7 drive is partitioned. (BTW I used Parted Magic) The Recycle drives of each OS does not include the the other OS's drives. Same with each OS's System Recovery drives.

A problem I ran into today is the sharing of folders on the home network. The Computer name is the same on both OSs and I attempted to share some fo the same folders from each OS. Under Win 7 I can't access them from the Win XP notebook. Under Win XP I always could.

On the Win 7 system I right clicked on each of the folders, selected Properties then the Share tab and Advanced and etc. The share name appears the same under both Win XP and Win 7, for example \\AMD_XP_2000\NBBkups so I'm not sure what the issue is.

Thoughts?
Ed_P
Ok, I believe my folders and printer are now being shared ok with the XP notebook. I found a lot of help for doing that here: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-7/s...ndows-7-and-xp/

I think the main thing was turning the Password function off.

One of my last concerns is how do I add GRLDR as a Win 7 boot option so I can boot my BartPE drive after I switch the drives around? With XP's boot.ini it is simply a matter of adding:

C:\grldr="Start GRUB ldr"

to the ini with Notepad. The Win 7 BCDEdit doesn't appear to be as easy to work with.

Suggestions?
oscar
Search for and install Easybcd.
Ed_P
Ok, I got GRLDR added to the menu. I didn't like EasyBCD so I did it the BCDEdit way. And I added grldr.mbr, grldr and menu.lst to the Win 7 C: drive. But when I boot and select GRLDR I get this error msg: Missing MBR-helper? What does that mean??

CODE
Real-mode Boot Sector
---------------------
identifier              {1691394c-6e44-11e0-a597-eabe64ba2634}
device                  boot
path                    \grldr.mbr
description             Start GRLDR



-Update-

I used the instructions from this posting: http://reboot.pro/9697/page__view__findpost__p__84185

That posting has a link which I tried that is broken. Anyone know of a replacement link? I was hoping it would help resolve the error. I tried a link in the post following that went to http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/files/...ws.htm#windows3 which was very informative but didn't answer the error question.

Ed_P
I added the /set {id} device partition=c: option to my GRLDR meu option and I still get the Missing MBR-Helper error when I try it.

Could this be due to my booting of the Win 7 drive is via GRLDR itself or because the Win 7 drive in on the 2ndary controller rather than the primary? My GRLDR parms for starting Win 7:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

It works but maybe it needs something for Win 7's GRLDR to work??
jaclaz
This should mean that grldr.mbr cannot find a grldr. dubbio.gif

You need both grldr.mbr and grldr in the root of a partition (possibly first partition of first drive - i.e. same volume where normally is the \boot\BCD).

You shouldn't mix "two" ways.
The use of the "/set {id} device partition=c:" is to be used in the case (default Windows 7 install WITHOUT previous partitioning) the "boot" volume is tha hidden 100 Mb partition.
In your case the "boot" partition should actually be "partition=C:", so it should not make ANY difference, but the recommended way is to use the "boot" volume.

WHICH EXACT version of grub4dos are you using?
WHAT from are you actually booting? (like USB stick, CD, please describe yur setup)

Besides, this MAKES NO SENSE:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1


After you exchange drives you need to HOOK the mapping, otherwise it is meaningless outside grub4dos itself, see here:
http://reboot.pro/2568/
http://reboot.pro/2568/page__st__7

The one you posted is PERFECTLY the same as:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
chainloader (hd0)+1



Whenever using grub4dos it is advised to "shorten" the path, like (but without knowing your setup cannot say if it applies to it, so take the following only as an example):
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map --hook
root (hd0,0)
chainloader /bootmgr


This way you by-pass BOTH the MBR and the PBR code and load directly the OS loader, i.e.:
grub4dos->bootmgr
which is if not "better" shorter then either:
grub4dos>PBR->bootmgr
or:
grub4dos->MBR->PBR->bootmgr (which is what you are doing with "chainloader (hd0)+1"

And establishing a root is always a good idea.

cheers.gif
jaclaz
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ May 27 2011, 01:17 PM) *
This should mean that grldr.mbr cannot find a grldr. dubbio.gif

You need both grldr.mbr and grldr in the root of a partition (possibly first partition of first drive - i.e. same volume where normally is the \boot\BCD).

They are. And menu.lst.

QUOTE
WHICH EXACT version of grub4dos are you using?

Without booting it I don't know. But I've had it a while and the files have 2006 dates.

QUOTE
WHAT from are you actually booting? (like USB stick, CD, please describe yur setup)

IDE hdds. One as the Master on the Primary IDE channel one as the Master on the 2ndary IDE channel. The 2nd hdd is tray mounted, thus the reference to the BartPE hdd drive and the Win 7 hdd.

QUOTE
Besides, this MAKES NO SENSE:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1


After you exchange drives you need to HOOK the mapping, otherwise it is meaningless outside grub4dos itself, see here:
http://reboot.pro/2568/
http://reboot.pro/2568/page__st__7

The one you posted is PERFECTLY the same as:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
chainloader (hd0)+1

It's worked for me for years with my BartPE hdd.


QUOTE
Whenever using grub4dos it is advised to "shorten" the path, like (but without knowing your setup cannot say if it applies to it, so take the following only as an example):
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map --hook
root (hd0,0)
chainloader /bootmgr


This way you by-pass BOTH the MBR and the PBR code and load directly the OS loader, i.e.:
grub4dos->bootmgr
which is if not "better" shorter then either:
grub4dos>PBR->bootmgr
or:
grub4dos->MBR->PBR->bootmgr (which is what you are doing with "chainloader (hd0)+1"

And establishing a root is always a good idea.

Does BartPE have a /bootmgr? If not those changes won't work except for the Win 7 hdd.

Thanks for responding jaclaz. I'll try the changes in a few days.

jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 27 2011, 08:35 PM) *
Without booting it I don't know. But I've had it a while and the files have 2006 dates.

Use a RECENT version!
READ this:
http://reboot.pro/14/page__st__1
If you use OUTDATED versions with NEWER OS what do you expect? w00t.gif




QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 27 2011, 08:35 PM) *
It's worked for me for years with my BartPE hdd.

OK. frusty.gif

Try this:
QUOTE
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

It will work all the same but you will have 4 unneeded lines instead of 2. loleverybody.gif

QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 27 2011, 08:35 PM) *
Does BartPE have a /bootmgr? If not those changes won't work except for the Win 7 hdd.

Sure, good morning, Mr. de La Palice, that's why I talked of "OS loader".
For NT/2k/XP:
CODE
chainloader /ntldr

for PE 1.x:
CODE
chainloader /setupldr.bin

For Vista ph34r.gif / 7 ( and E 2.x and 3.x):
CODE
chainloader /bootmgr


jaclaz
oscar
This works for me:

title find and load NTLDR of Windows NT/2K/XP
#fallback 1
find --set-root /ntldr
chainloader /ntldr
savedefault --wait=2

title find and load BOOTMGR of Windows Vista 7
#fallback 2
find --set-root --ignore-floppies /bootmgr
chainloader /bootmgr
savedefault --wait=2
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ May 27 2011, 03:10 PM) *
Use a RECENT version!
READ this:
http://reboot.pro/14/page__st__1
If you use OUTDATED versions with NEWER OS what do you expect? w00t.gif

Valid point. I'm a big believer in the "if it works, leave it alone" philosophy.

QUOTE
Try this:
QUOTE
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

It will work all the same but you will have 4 unneeded lines instead of 2. loleverybody.gif

Maybe but what I have has worked well every since cdob recommended it to me. http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?s=&...st&p=119444

QUOTE (oscar @ May 27 2011, 07:16 PM) *
This works for me:

Thank you oscar. I will try them when I get back.

Do note that I don't have a problem booting Win 7, or BartPE, from GRUB4DOS on the Win XP hdd. My problem is rebooting GRUB4DOS after I invoke the booting of Win 7 from the GRUB4DOS on the Win XP hdd. Basically I want to test that the Win 7 hdd's GRLDR functionality works before I swap it with the Win XP hdd.
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 28 2011, 06:33 AM) *
Valid point. I'm a big believer in the "if it works, leave it alone" philosophy.

I am too thumbup.gif , but I am a stronger believer in logic wink.gif.

If you like to do senseless or random things w00t.gif, you are welcome, though smiling9.gif, the thing I don't understand is why you ask for help/advice and when you get it you normally fail to follow it (or at least try it or anyway do it only eventually and after having shown any possible resistance against the gioven advice) and usually continue on the way that is giving problem untill you understand that walls are sometimes (please read as very often) tougher than your head. frusty.gif

Using nowadays *any* grub4dos version before 0.4.4 16-10-2009, and EXPECIALLY using them together with newer OSes is simply "asking for troubles" AND making a good 1/3 of currently used features (that are NOT in earlier versions or were buggy) vain, of course you are perfectly free to use you "2006" version smile.gif.

All in all, your approach seems to me like a kind of lack of respect towards the people that try to support you that I find definitely - if not offensive - enough irritating to make me realize the utterly foolishness of my attempts to try and help you. bye.gif

cheers.gif
Wonko
Ed_P
ohmy.gif Sorry you feel that way jaclaz, and not sure why you do. I have multiple machines and just because I update GRUB4DOS on one, like I did my notebook earlier this year, doesn't mean I update it on all of them, especially if they are working as is with no problem. And I will try the suggestions given when I get home, though not the one to use map (hd1) (hd0) map (hd0) (hd1) multiple times. wink.gif
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ May 28 2011, 01:53 PM) *
, and not sure why you do.

That's good smile.gif, I love to keep people in doubt. smiling9.gif

cheers.gif
Wonko
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ May 27 2011, 01:17 PM) *
Besides, this MAKES NO SENSE:
CODE
title 01. BartPE on DrvImage or Windows on Windows 7
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

Time for an update.

Today I replaced my 0.4.2 version of grldr on the Windows XP and Windows 7 C: drives with the 0.4.4 version you had me put on my notebook. Also the 0.4.4 grldr.mbr. I also changed my XP's menu.lst code to this
CODE
title 00. BartPE on DrvImage
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
chainloader (hd0)+1

title 01. Windows on Windows 7
# http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?s=&showtopic=24300&view=findpost&p=167102
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map --hook
chainloader (hd0)+1

I booted XP's new grldr, selected the Windows 7 option, which brought up Windows 7's boot options and I selected GRLDR and it came up!! celebrate14.gif

But with all the changes happening at once I wasn't sure which piece was the key solution to the problem. So, I replaced both the 0.4.4 grldrs with the old 0.4.2 versions and rebooted XP, reselected GRLDR and Windows 7, which came up and I then selected the Windows 7's GRLDR option. Lo and behold it came up again!! thumbup.gif So the key change was the adding of the map --hook parameter. happy62.gif And just for grins, I tried the XP grldr set of parms without the map --hook option, and they booted Windows 7 and when I then tried the Windows 7 GRLDR option it again came up fine. huh.gif

Two things to note; 1. I don't like the 0.4.4 grldr menu screen display, it screws up my favorite glogo splash screen, 2. the BartPE drive doesn't have a MBR record.

It will be interesting to try the map --hook parm with my BartPE drive.

thumbup.gif
jaclaz
Maybe you mean no MBR CODE.
If it had no MBR "record" (in the sense of DATA, i.e. partition table, magic bytes and signature) it wouldn't be accessible. whistling.gif

jaclaz

P.S.:
QUOTE
So the key change was the adding of the map --hook parameter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Jun 2 2011, 02:51 AM) *
Maybe you mean no MBR CODE.
If it had no MBR "record" (in the sense of DATA, i.e. partition table, magic bytes and signature) it wouldn't be accessible. whistling.gif

Good points Mr. Jaclaz. happy62.gif I figured that since the drive never had a normal OS on it, and since I always thought the MBR was only for booting, that the drive didn't have one. But as you point out, and as I learned when you helped me with my notebook hdd problem, the MBR record contains more than just booting data, so yes, the drive does indeed have a MBR record. Thanks for pointing that out.
Ed_P
Still curious as to how and what GRUB4DOS changes on the hdd. This has happened twice to systems of mine now. The 1st time I lost the C: drive on my notebook, this time after I resolve a problem with a Missing MBR-helper by running with the current version of GRUB4DOS and a root parameter I can now run without the error with the older version of GRUB4DOS and without the root parameter. Something has changed, and since it carries over from boot to boot, it has to be on the hdd.

confused1.gif
jaclaz
No, it has NOT.

grub4dos DOES NOT change anything unless you tell it to do so.

But it's only lost time to try to explain this to you since you are convinced of this behaviour that not only has never been reported by anyone else, but that is also IMPOSSIBLE.

I wonder why you use grub4dos at all.

No dubbio.gif, I don't actually want to know, it would be some more wasted time frusty.gif .

jaclaz
Ed_P
QUOTE (jaclaz @ Jun 3 2011, 01:10 PM) *
I wonder why you use grub4dos at all.

Because until this year I never feared it.

Just because no one else has noticed it, or noticed it and failed to comment on it, does not mean it doesn't occur. And how many people solve a problem then go back and retest the steps taken?

Does Window 7's backup app backup the drive's MBR?
jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Jun 3 2011, 08:51 PM) *
Because until this year I never feared it.


Good smiling9.gif , that was the past, now that you know (actually technically that you WRONGLY think that you know) remove it NOW!

If you continue to keep it on your hard drives it will slowly change all bytes corresponding to values a Sieve of Eratosthenes can find ph34r.gif:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Eratosthenes

(it only runs this routine on wednesday nights, if full moon, on months without "r")

cheers.gif
jaclaz
Ed_P
Ok, have had some experience running Win 7's backup and restore app and have some questions.

Does the app include the hdd's MBR when it does an image backup?

Is there a way to restore individual files from the image backup?

Is there a way to run the restore of the image from BartPE rather than the Win 7 Repair Disc?

I'm sure I can grind these out using Google but I thought I'd ask and see if you can save me some time.

jaclaz
QUOTE (Ed_P @ Jun 8 2011, 03:42 AM) *
I'm sure I can grind these out using Google but I thought I'd ask and see if you can save me some time.


Hmm. dubbio.gif



cheers.gif
jaclaz
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